Living together before marriage - thoughts?

[Fairlight Excalibur]

More food for thought:

Paul was an evangelist, not a pastor.

[Rubber Band Man]

Don't worry, we don't have to. ;)

Is it too late to make a sex joke?

Yeah? Ok.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

SD, I seem to notice in all of your posts that you seem to think that all Christianity is all about "If you keep the rules you get into Heaven". idk. Am I correct in thinking you have this perception?

SD, as much I respect your concern for others, I am beginning to question whether you have even a basic understanding of our beliefs. Premarital sex does not equal instant damnation (or even eventual damnation, for that matter). ML and Guild, I believe, think the same way I do (unless they come from a wildly different branch of Christianity - since they haven't stated their denominations, I can't say for sure). The concepts of sin and punishment as accepted by Christianity are not as simple as "commit a mortal sin, go to hell," or "commit too many serious sins, go to hell," which is the distinct impression I got from your last post.

Nope, to you both.

That was simple. :)




How about I reword things slightly:

You can't accidentally have sex. You won't go into a room with your partner and be all, "Oh my, all of a sudden, we are having sex, how did this happen?!".

So pre-marital sex isn't something you could do in a moment of thoughtlessness or carelessness (which you could for many of the other sins). There's no, "I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to be having sex with you right now". You must actively engage in having sex, and it's a very specific choice.

If you think it's wrong to have sex before marriage, it's something that's pretty easy to avoid doing. You just don't do it. The idea here is, someone believes it's a very bad thing to do, even if they want to do it. They will still have to choose to have pre-marital sex.

If you're old enough and responsible enough to be moving in with your partner, then you're damn well old enough and responsible enough to say "we're not having pre-marital sex" and that be that, end of discussion.

I don't understand where everyone's doubt is coming from. I don't mean to insult anyone, but do you all doubt your will-power when it comes to this? That sex is something that is impossible to avoid if you're laying in bed with your partner? You're not having pre-marital sex right now. Just keep doing that and you're set. You know?

[Valigarmander]

Is it too late to make a sex joke?

It's never too late for a sex joke.

[Marilink]

[quote="Romans 7:15-19]"]

It's not as easy as just saying "I'm not gonna sin today!" You have a sinful nature within you that's trying to get you to do what's wrong.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

Soooo, to you folks, it would be very easy to just up and have sex, even though you think it's bad? Like, that would just happen? I don't want to, but I'm doing it, I'm having sex!

I am absolutely not saying this to be disrespectful, however it probably looks like it anyway: Maybe the fact that you believe sin to be inherent in you is what makes it so... likely? easy? possible? to go against your will. "It's not me, it's the sin that's inside me, driving me to do bad things". That's... that's a lot like the kind of excuses you hear from proper bad people. :/

[Marilink]

Wa-hay, I never said that "the devil made me do it." It's just that Christians are still sinners. They still do bad things and still sin quite often. Sex is a sin like any other that can tempt people just as much as any--in fact, more often than not, more than many.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

Neither did I. I was paraphrasing your: "As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me."

My whole point was always that having sex isn't something that will automatically occur by being alone with your girlfriend. You'll have to decide to do it. If you decide, then you will, if you decide not, then you won't. I have that much will-power. So should everyone else. It's sex! It's not "I fell over and my bits went into your bits and I didn't mean to I'm sorry I sinned".

[Marilink]

I agree, you can't accidentally have sex. I never said you could, that's just silly. If you have sex, it's a conscious decision you make--a conscious decision that's still sinful. As I said, Christians sin like anyone, and sexual sins aren't exempt from that.

And the "sin living within me" is describing the teaching of the Sinful Nature, the part of all humans that is innately sinful.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

That's cool, I get that. I guess you guys kind of assume the worst--no, I don't mean that badly, I just mean that you assume any sin can occur because you're innately sinful, and it's just a given that if you can sin (through circumstance/temptation), you lean towards "probably will"? I assume the best of people. That they are strong, that they are capable, that they will do what's right. I don't believe we're innately sinful, I believe we just need to learn how to be one with God through our lives and actions. If pre-marital sex is in opposition to that goal, I reckon anyone with that belief will stick to it. So, your way of sticking to it is by not being alone at night with your lady. Some people will stick to it even if they are alone at night with their partner. And here we are back to the original point; no one is the same as the next guy, so advice should be suited to the individual, not to a generalisation.

[LOOT]

It's not "I fell over and my bits went into your bits and I didn't mean to I'm sorry I sinned".

*Snicker*

I dunno, SD, calling it bits makes it kinda awesome.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

Dude, I know. I had to think about it for a while and decide what was the best terminology for that sentence. XD

[ZeldaGirl]

I get the idea of temptation. But, I also see what SD is saying, and can't help but think that, if you truly thought that it was absolutely bad, you wouldn't give in. I don't think in that instance you decide "I know this is bad, but I'm doing it anyway."

Really, where the gray area comes in is when people perhaps do not fully believe it's wrong, but are taught that because they are part of that faith. Now, those individuals I can believe would struggle more with the temptation...because they don't truly believe that pre-marital sex is wrong. Essentially, you cannot give full consent to sex if you think it's wrong to do so, but if there is the slightest doubt that it is wrong, then yes, you could fall into that temptation.

But I think that brings up another set of problems. If you truly don't believe that pre-marital sex is wrong, then you have deeper issues of faith and belief in your particular religion.

[Kil'jaeden]

Asking if pre-marital sex is right or wrong, to me, is like asking whether putting butter on toast is right or wrong. But if you think it's wrong, and do it anyway, then you simply get forgiveness and move on, because it's probably not too much on your permanent record. If you don't think it's wrong, then go ahead and do it.

I would actually think moving in for some couples would be a disaster. They might not be prepared, and even worse, they might resign themsevles to it because they really don't want to move their stuff out. But I think what's worse is getting married too soon. They think a magic label will somehow make things work, and I have seen many relatives and friends marry young, and it often does not go well. My cousin, not out of high school, is moving in with her new husband into my old house, for example. She's an inexperienced, sheltered kid too, so I can see it turning out badly. It happens again and again. Moving in may not work, but the same can be said of marriage, and that's a much harder one to break, because you have to move your stuff as well as go through a divorce, and sort out the finances. Weighing the risks, moving in before marriage seems to win out. Not too long before marriage so that there is mutual commitment, but maybe a few months before the date of the wedding. That way you can see a preview of the next 50 years or so of your daily life. If both of the people believe their relationship will work for a lifetime, then I see no reason why a few months of cohabitation would be too much to ask. Yes, it sounds cold and calculating, people might have a problem with pre-marital activities, but when making good decisions, those don't matter..

[Fairlight Excalibur]

SD, the longer we talk, the better understanding I have of the differences in our perspectives. Which is pretty cool. I still believe you're totally wrong, but at least I can see your reasoning now even though I vehemently disagree.

The following points are an attempt on my part to summarize the differences we have in our beliefs, not to place any counterarguments.


One key point here that is causing this large gap in our perspectives lies in your (and my) concept of will power and temptation. If I understand this correctly, you think it would be fine to live together so long as you trust your own will power to be sufficient to prevent any deviations from your beliefs. That's fine and dandy. Problem is, Christians are mostly taught from a young age not to never rely on their will power unless they absolutely have no other choice; it is far safer to simply avoid a tempting situation than to put yourself in it and hope that one's willpower is sufficient.

Could I live with a woman who I intend to marry and not have sex with her? Most definitely. I believe I have that much willpower. But as a Christian, I believe it is better not to take that chance if I don't have to. As for the point raised earlier about it being easy to visit your significant other and have sex anyway... well... call me a religious wacko, but I was never in a house alone with my girlfriend prior to marriage. Ever. We had our privacy, alone in a room, watching a movie, whatever, but her parents or her siblings or one my of roommates or somebody was always within earshot, or just around the corner, or whatever. This was an arrangement we both agreed on, not to ensure that we never had sex (as neither of us believed that would happen), but to ensure that no one could easily accuse us of doing so.

Appalled at our wackiness yet?


Also...

This would also be a huge difference in beliefs, as the Bible clearly and implicitly states in multiple locations that humans are sinful by nature. Also, if you believe that we should be one with God through our lives and actions, then why would you

rock the seven deadlies? That is a rather unique way of becoming one with God.

You also stated that

If pre-marital sex is in opposition to that goal, I reckon anyone with that belief will stick to it.

This would also be a tremendous difference in perspective, and again, I think you're wrong. (aren't opinions great?) I believe people go through high points and low points, stressful and peaceful, thick and thin. Willpower and determination waver, I believe you will agree with me on that. People are not always at their best; a person who is a vegetarian due to moral choice, who honestly believes that eating meat is a sin, will totally reject that double bacon cheeseburger you offered them. Yet, if that same person found himself a homeless victim of Hurricane Yasi and goes three days without eating, how long before they chow down on that pack of hot dogs they found?

You may disagree with the logic, you may say comparing food to sex is stupid, but either way, I believe the same principle applies on a much larger and more important scale here. People's willpower is not a constant factor; it is subject to wavering, and thus I try never to rely on mine unless I must.



Those are the most important differences I see between our ideals. We will not likely ever change them; you and I will probably disagree on many things until the end of time.

It is for this reason that I am glad for one ideal held in common between our belief systems; namely, the belief that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and that we should respect each others viewpoints and coexist (not cohabitate ) peacefully.


I very rarely say this to anyone outside my immediate circle of close friends SD, but you have my respect. You have consistently shown a genuine concern for others and a willingness to help them, regardless of circumstance, and a strong sense of justice along with it. In cases like these, that same sense of justice may put us at odds, but in the end, after all our bickering and criticism and attempted refutations of the other party's supposedly flawed thinking, I am proud to call you friend.

[Deepfake]

This would also be a tremendous difference in perspective, and again, I think you're wrong. (aren't opinions great?) I believe people go through high points and low points, stressful and peaceful, thick and thin. Willpower and determination waver, I believe you will agree with me on that. People are not always at their best; a person who is a vegetarian due to moral choice, who honestly believes that eating meat is a sin, will totally reject that double bacon cheeseburger you offered them. Yet, if that same person found himself a homeless victim of Hurricane Yasi and goes three days without eating, how long before they chow down on that pack of hot dogs they found?

Totally inappropriate comparison. Sex isn't necessary to live, you will not die without it. That's a lot more like saying "You wouldn't normally kill a man, but if you were in a sinking submarine and someone has stolen your air supply, you might make an exception" - you just created exceptional circumstance. If it's "have premarital sex to stop your family from burning to death in the murderous Jigsaw's sinister puzzle" then you're probably just gonna be okay with that and assume God would hopefully agree with you on this one.

And you're also assuming that it takes someone being "at their best" to turn down sex. Trust me on this one, I can be at my most mediocre and still turn down sex. It's called having something else to do.

[Fairlight Excalibur]

You're missing the point so completely that I really can't tell if you're trolling or serious.

The whole point of that comparison was to demonstrate that people's willpower wavers. End of story. Any illustration will have points that differ slightly from the discussion it is illustrating, and you are focusing on the little toe of the elephant I presented.

EDIT: Okay, you have added more points to the end of your post.

And you're also assuming that it takes someone being "at their best" to turn down sex.

No, I am not, and I said nothing of the sort. You are the one making assumptions. My point was that willpower is not reliable because it wavers, end of story, again. You are welcome to disagree, but don't add points to my logic that are not mine.

[Deepfake]

You're missing the point so completely that I really can't tell if you're trolling or serious.

The whole point of that comparison was to demonstrate that people's willpower wavers. End of story. Any illustration will have points that differ slightly from the discussion it is illustrating, and you are focusing on the little toe of the elephant I presented.

EDIT: Okay, you have added more points to the end of your post.



No, I am not, and I said nothing of the sort. You are the one making assumptions. My point was that willpower is not reliable because it wavers, end of story, again. You are welcome to disagree, but don't add points to my logic that are not mine.

It's not willpower to avoid doing something the antithesis of your heart-felt beliefs. It's default. If you're wavering so badly, you don't trust it anyway.

You created a context where a person will die if they do not violate their sense of right. That is an exceptional situation. People will differ to the norm in exceptional situations. We're not talking about life-threatening circumstance. We're talking about an every day situation where you default to not boning. It's a very simple premise, and you're making irrational comparisons to show an exception.

You're taking the "could you resist doing this" scenario and making it a "could you resist doing this if you will die because you didn't" scenario.

Frankly, Jesus died to prove a point. If you can't do that, you're not being christlike, you're just doing the easy parts. End of story. That's like mixing batter and proclaiming that you've baked a cake.

[Fairlight Excalibur]

AI, is human willpower 100% consistent, or does it vary between circumstances and phases of life?

EDIT:

Frankly, Jesus died to prove a point.

Frankly, you're wrong.

[Fairlight Excalibur]