Living together before marriage - thoughts?

[Marilink]

Okay then, get ready for a lot of repetition. Reading this post is gonna be really annoying for you because I re-use the same argument pretty much the whole time. Don't worry, though, it was just as annoying to write.

If someone strongly believes that pre-marital sex is wrong, adding temptation will not change that belief. If they truly believe that it's wrong, they will simply avoid having pre-marital sex. You don't want to have temptation because you are afraid that you will give in to it. I find that insulting to all people. Just because you LIKE cake, and you WANT cake, doesn't mean you're going to EAT cake, even if it's sitting in your fridge. Just because you love someone, and you are in the same house as them every night, does not mean you WILL have sex before you are married.

But if you believe it's wrong, why would you want to put yourself in that tempting situation? I just don't believe it's wise.

I don't inherently doubt everyone's will-power. If they make the decision to live together, and they believe that pre-marital sex is wrong, I trust those people to stick to their beliefs even if they live in the same house. Living together won't even be the same level or kind of temptation to every couple as it is to you or the next guy.

Humans are, however, sinful by nature. Like I said a few posts ago, I wouldn't ever advise that two people move in together no matter how strong of will I think they are. It's just not a situation you want to put yourself in.

This is pivotal to the next point. Carry this thought with you: living together DOES NOT mean you are having sex. Living together DOES NOT mean you are GOING TO have sex.

But there will be that temptation. Which you don't want.

So the next issue, that to cause offense to a fellow Christian is to cause them doubt in their beliefs of right and wrong.

1. That is THEIR OWN failing of belief. You cannot change their faith, only they can do that.

But you don't want to cause your fellow Christian to stumble!

2. If you are not having sex, you are not disobeying your faith. Living together DOES NOT mean you are having sex.

Yes, this is true, but how often do people live together and not have sex? Like I said to Deku, wouldn't you think that a completely chaste cohabited relationship is more of the exception than the rule?

3. Temptation and will-power are not universal. What is difficult for one person will not automatically be difficult for all.

Yeah, I get that. But, again, you don't want temptation to even put a foot in the door.

Again with the cake: you're on a diet. So is your fellow Christian. You are helping one another, being supportive, praying together every Sunday at Church. They feel like they have to avoid exposure to cake, because they don't believe they will refuse a slice if it was offered to them. You, on the other hand, are doing fine with your diet. Now your mother's birthday is coming up, and you are completely at ease buying, and keeping her birthday cake in your fridge. You friend finds out, and they are so worried! They are afraid that you might break your diet! How can you avoid all that temptation? Because, you tell them, you have faith in yourself and your diet, and you know that you will not eat the cake. To you, it is not a temptation so great that you will cave in, even though you would love to eat that cake.

...okay, but having cake isn't having sex. I understand the analogy but it would just be silly to delve into it.

YOUR PERSONAL FEELINGS in any given situation are NOT universal. If YOU would be so tempted to have pre-marital sex by living together that you would go against your faith, your religion, the things you believe are right and wrong, that's YOU. If any other couple WANTS to live together, and they believe they will not give into the temptation just because they share a house, that's THEIR choice.

You wouldn't want to place yourself in a tempting situation regardless of your willpower.

You would advise against it because of YOUR fears.

No, I would advise against it because it's a tempting situation.

You would not advise someone to make their OWN decision, even if they have every confidence that they will stay true to their beliefs.

I would advise them to not put themselves in a tempting situation.

You would advise someone, not because of what they ARE doing, but what they MIGHT MAYBE ALMOST do (IF they were to just give into temptation).

But you want to avoid the temptation altogether!

You aren't advising them against having pre-marital sex. You are advising them against sleeping under the same roof IN CASE they have pre-marital sex.

...yeah.

And also, you are advising them to avoid temptation because it will make other Christians worry about temptation, make other Christians worry that they will give in, make other Christians worry about the truth of right and wrong. Fears that other Christians hold, that you cannot control, because it is their fear in their heart.

And why would a Christian want to cause other Christians that doubt?

Seeing my friend break into someone's car will NOT MAKE ME THINK IT'S OKAY.

Knowing a friend is having pre-marital sex will NOT make you think it's okay.

...I don't really know what you're getting at here.

Okay, there you go, SD. I went point-for-point. Notice, I used the same phrase of "temptation" or "tempting situation" over and over again. Because that's what's at the heart of the issue! So yes, I did, in fact, read your post, and my response was pretty uniform throughout. I could go more in-depth on relationships between Christians but that doesn't have any relevance to you whatsoever.

Can we seriously just agree to disagree now? I'm clearly not going to convince you of anything even remotely close to what I'm trying to say.

[United Nations]

...okay, but having cake isn't having sex.

Hmm...it could be. ;)

[Marilink]

Hmm...it could be. ;)

All squares are rectangles... :P

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

If you believe it's wrong, you won't do it.
Like, just straight up: if you truly believe something is wrong, you will not do it. I'm not saying that it won't be TEMPTING to do it (I'm tempted to punch people all the time), but you will not give in to that temptation because you firmly believe it is wrong.

Temptation already exists between a couple. This is my answer to all you "don't put yourself in a tempting situation" points. Temptation is already there.

A couple can made the decision to live together, and to not have sex, and so the temptation is not going to be MORE than if they did not live together. A couple can be certain of that choice.

I believe that if a couple is confident in their ability to remain chaste while living together, then they are the ONLY people who will know if they do have that ability. And if they ARE confident, then I trust their judgement of the situation. I would not advise them to live apart if they honestly, truly believe that they will remain chaste while cohabitating, because it's THEIR choice and THEY are the ones who need to be comfortable with it.

To assume it IS going to be more tempting is not universally true. It is sometimes true that moving in together will put more temptation onto a couple. But if it is not universally true, you cannot hope to universally give the right advice to every couple. Some couples will not find living together to be more tempting than living apart.

Every couple is different. Temptation between every couple is different.

There is already temptation, just by dating and loving someone. If that temptation will not be MORE for the specific couple moving in together, why is it your business to advise them not to? Because, keeping in mind, to THEM SPECIFICALLY, the temptation is not increased by moving in together.

That's my issue with this. You would treat every situation as the same. Give the same advice every time. You are not always correct with that advice, though. Because to CERTAIN couples, they can make the careful and considered choice to live together without having sex. Blanket assumptions, blanket advice, that's just bad form. That's being inconsiderate to the individuals involved. Might as well print out pamphlets to cover every major stumbling point and hand them out. No need for personalised advice! Every situation is exactly the same!

"Seeing my friend break into someone's car will NOT MAKE ME THINK IT'S OKAY.

Knowing a friend is having pre-marital sex will NOT make you think it's okay. "

...I don't really know what you're getting at here.

You told me that a Christian might be moved to doubt their belief in right/wrong, might be caused to stumble in their faith, if they see other Christians behaving in a certain way. That by seeing another Christian move in together, and all the temptation they assume is involved, it would put them in a situation where they have to worry about what is right or wrong.

I'm saying that's total bull****.

If you personally know a Christian is having pre-marital sex, you won't start thinking "oh it must be okay to do that I will go have pre-marital sex now" IF YOU ALREADY BELIEVE IT IS WRONG. Just like seeing someone break into a car won't make you decide "oh it's okay to break into cars I will do that myself". You can't change someone's beliefs in right/wrong just by doing wrong yourself.

Worse yet, that example is totally off in this particular discussion. Let's try again:

If you personally THINK a Christian MIGHT BE having pre-marital sex (because they live together, and you consider that too tempting), you won't start thinking "oh it must be okay to do that I will go have pre-marital sex now" IF YOU ALREADY BELIEVE IT IS WRONG. Just like THINKING someone MIGHT break into a car won't make you decide "oh it's okay to break into cars I will do that myself".

The actions of those around you should have no bearing on what's right for YOU.

As someone aspiring to be a religious and community leader, I am sincerely and severely worried that you take this generalised approach to guiding people's important life choices. Pre-marital sex is wrong? Yes (for Christians and other followers of religions). Living together before marriage is wrong? No, it's not.

Assume I'm one of your Christian congregation members: If I tell you I want to move in with my boyfriend, and I tell you in total honesty that "yes it will be tempting, but not more tempting than it already is, and we have decided to definitely wait until we're married to have sex", you will STILL tell me not to co-habitate. For reasons that don't apply to me.

Look, you can pike out of the discussion if you like, but to me, this isn't just "oh, Marilink believes something different to me, that's cool" like most religious discussions. I genuinely think you're approaching this from a kind of frightening mindset, one that's too stuck on a single idea, and I think it would be bad, like proper-bad, for me to just ignore it, to just shrug and let it go. It's not "I'm right, you're wrong". It's not "agree to disagree". It's "I'm worried about what impact you could potentially have on people's lives". Like, that's a big thing. You plan on becoming a person who will be in a position to guide people's lives. Having too singular of a mindset in that kind of powerful position worries me. I know you will always want to do the right thing, and what's best for people, but if you have only one way to approach a situation like this, I am concerned that the advice you'd give won't take into consideration the individual and their personal needs and faith.

As my friend, I don't want you to become one of those people that thinks there is only ONE right way to do everything. That would be sad. :(

[Marilink]

I'd rather "pike out" of the discussion, honestly. Relationships between/among Christians are something that don't follow the world's standards of right and wrong. We could be having a very similar discussion about homosexuality right now, and how my belief that it is wrong is a dangerous and insulting thing to think.

Our beliefs are just fundamentally different. You and I can't reconcile them, especially on an issue about ideals like this, as Crav said. The Bible says "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh." Moving in with someone of the opposite gender is as reserved for marriage as much as sex is. Living together is associated with sex--and even if you plan on living together without sex, you're still placing yourself in that incredibly tempting spot.

So, yeah. I think living together before marriage is wrong. Plain and simple. Sorry if that frightens you.

And, you know what? Maybe I've misunderstood what I've been taught about this. Maybe I'll learn something different in my next 8 years of schooling that'll tell me how to be more considerate of individual situations and how to counsel better. That's why they don't make people pastors at 18 years old.

Man, I really hope I end up being a better pastor than you think I'll be.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

Having known you for as many years as I have, I know that you will be an amazing pastor, ML.

We all have room for improvement. Our dealings with others is part of that learning process. Maybe in retrospect you'll see what I've said and it will change the way you deal with certain things, but maybe not. It's not really what you're thinking that frightens me, rather, it's that you're only thinking that, for every person, in every circumstance. One of the things I value most about people is their ability to see things from multiple points of view, because in that, we can be the most sympathetic, compassionate, and empathic towards others. When you can see it from their perspective, then you can connect with them deeper. As a leader in any group, you need to be able to come to their level, see things from their point of view, see what they, as an individual, are capable of. You can tailor your advice and counsel to the individual only when you can relate to them, and concede their strengths and weaknesses into the plan. I know that your religion doesn't leave much wiggle-room to compromise certain situations, but just... never stop being open to the possibility that your path to God isn't the only one available. Some people can walk a different path beside yours, and still take your advice, still need your counsel and support, even while they do things that wouldn't suit you personally. Be open to alternatives.

I still have faith in you.

[Marilink]

Thanks SD. That's nice to hear. :)

Unfortunately, the Bible isn't written for individual situations...we have to take what it says and try to apply it to everything we can. I'm positive the next time Cohabitation is brought up in a doctrine class, I'll be asking some questions that refer to this conversation. :P

[CaptHayfever]

Like I said to Deku, wouldn't you think that a completely chaste cohabited relationship is more of the exception than the rule?

I know you guys have wrapped up nicely, but I've seen lots of people in this living situation, both Christian & non. Heck, if not for dorm regulations forbidding it, I would've spent a year in that living situation with one of my best friends.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Deku Tree]

Not for nothing, but I don't think I'm special for finding cohabitation no more tempting than having two places we could have easily and discretely had sex any time we wanted.

[Fairlight Excalibur]

If you believe it's wrong, you won't do it.
Like, just straight up: if you truly believe something is wrong, you will not do it.

I realize this conversation has sort of ended and all, but I have to ask.

Are you serious? You have never once done anything that you thought was wrong?



EDIT:

Lol at the deja vu.

[S1x]

As far as I know, when people live together it's almost always more beneficial to be married when it comes to money. With somebody I either plan to marry or someone I'm in a relationship with and might marry, I probably wouldn't do that.

Don't care about ideals; they just get in the way and often go in circles.

[Kargath]

Hmm...it could be. ;)

Now that's a distracting mental image.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

Are you serious? You have never once done anything that you thought was wrong?

Sure, dude, I've done plenty of things I thought were wrong (sometimes only after the ****ty outcome, too ;) ). And by your rules, I've done more wrong than you can shake a Bible at. I rock all the Seven Deadlies without much concern. I've broken all your Commandments, except for killing folks. And that doesn't even begin to cover all the non-major Christian sins I've committed.

But my "wrongs" were never soul-deep wrongs. Like, against my being wrongs. Some of them were stupidity, some of them were inexperience, some of them were just bad situations where I made the wrong choice.

I figure when you guys are calling your eternal soul into the equation, we're talking about some serious belief of "wrong". The soul-deep, against your being kind of wrong. If you DO believe (really believe) that pre-marital sex is wrong, because it will harm your soul, then you would take that **** seriously and not mess around (in more ways than one). If you DON'T actually believe your soul is at risk from pre-marital sex, then what's the issue?

I take it seriously that, as I understand it, you believe your eternal soul would be put into a precarious situation if you had pre-marital sex. Within the context of the conversation, this kind of "wrong" is right up there with "you are basically killing yourself if you do this".

[Bad Dragonite]

^Unless youre an addict, and even then.

SD, I seem to notice in all of your posts that you seem to think that all Christianity is all about "If you keep the rules you get into Heaven". idk. Am I correct in thinking you have this perception?


@ML:
This is kind of off subject, but @

That's why they don't make people pastors at 18 years old.

Actually as I hear it, there are teenage evangelists in the church of China and they've been compared in alot of ways to the first church. haha. Just fruit for thought I guess. ^_^
But man I know they're dedicated wad.

[Fairlight Excalibur]

Sure, dude, I've done plenty of things I thought were wrong (sometimes only after the ****ty outcome, too ;) ). And by your rules, I've done more wrong than you can shake a Bible at. I rock all the Seven Deadlies without much concern. I've broken all your Commandments, except for killing folks. And that doesn't even begin to cover all the non-major Christian sins I've committed.

But my "wrongs" were never soul-deep wrongs. Like, against my being wrongs. Some of them were stupidity, some of them were inexperience, some of them were just bad situations where I made the wrong choice.

And yet we are still friends.... wait... how does that work.... argh my brain...

I figure when you guys are calling your eternal soul into the equation, we're talking about some serious belief of "wrong". The soul-deep, against your being kind of wrong. If you DO believe (really believe) that pre-marital sex is wrong, because it will harm your soul, then you would take that **** seriously and not mess around (in more ways than one). If you DON'T actually believe your soul is at risk from pre-marital sex, then what's the issue?

I take it seriously that, as I understand it, you believe your eternal soul would be put into a precarious situation if you had pre-marital sex. Within the context of the conversation, this kind of "wrong" is right up there with "you are basically killing yourself if you do this".

I can see it now:

"DANGIT, I THREW MY SOUL OUT OF SOCKET!!


SD, as much I respect your concern for others, I am beginning to question whether you have even a basic understanding of our beliefs. Premarital sex does not equal instant damnation (or even eventual damnation, for that matter). ML and Guild, I believe, think the same way I do (unless they come from a wildly different branch of Christianity - since they haven't stated their denominations, I can't say for sure). The concepts of sin and punishment as accepted by Christianity are not as simple as "commit a mortal sin, go to hell," or "commit too many serious sins, go to hell," which is the distinct impression I got from your last post.

[LOOT]

SD, as much I respect your concern for others, I am beginning to question whether you have even a basic understanding of our beliefs

[Fairlight Excalibur]

:lol:

Discussing faiths, run while you can.
And, you forgot my punctuation.

[LOOT]

So wait lack of punctuation bothers you

Okay

So that must mean

IT'S YOUR WEAKNESS

TAKE THIS

AND THAT

HI-YAAAH

WHAM

HAVE ANOTHER

FEELING WEAK YET

ATATATATATATATATATATATA

ARE YOU OKAY

BUSTER WOLF

[Fairlight Excalibur]

So wait lack of punctuation bothers you

Okay

So that must mean

IT'S YOUR WEAKNESS

TAKE THIS

AND THAT

HI-YAAAH

WHAM

HAVE ANOTHER

FEELING WEAK YET

ATATATATATATATATATATATA

ARE YOU OKAY

BUSTER WOLF

[Marilink]

@ML:
This is kind of off subject, but @

Actually as I hear it, there are teenage evangelists in the church of China and they've been compared in alot of ways to the first church. haha. Just fruit for thought I guess. ^_^
But man I know they're dedicated wad.

Evangelists, yeah. But those aren't legitimate pastors who are church leaders and whatnot. I'm basically being an evangelist right now. :P