Living together before marriage - thoughts?

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#21

Post by ZeldaGirl » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:50 pm

re: your statistics in the OP: don't think "breaking up before even marrying" is a valid statistic for "failed marriage due to living together" because nothing in those cases say they would not break up even if they married before moving in. I bet if you removed those cases from the study the final result would go the other way.
The point is, people who cohabit at great length but don't want to marry show lower levels of commitment to one another in general, typically thought to be due to the lack of legal connection.


To ML: I would think 'taking personal offense' and having 'compassionate concern' as two different things. The latter makes more sense to me than the former.

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#22

Post by Deepfake » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:52 pm

ZeldaGirl wrote:Psh. People are offended by anything and everything. It's just something I can't wrap my mind around - why does that offend someone else - something that has no actual impact on that other person? I could understand them being concerned for someone's soul or whatever, but offense?
Well yeah, I could pick a fight with anyone over this if I had a mind to. It'd be so petty, but if there's one thing I'm actually defensive over, it's my relationship - I don't need somebody else's approval to choose what makes me and my wife happy. That can sound selfish in some instances, but I only think a selfish person would take offense to my selfishness.

TG's point is completely valid; you can't make statistical statements about whether or not a couple that is married didn't break up permanently before they married. 100% of persons who married were married. If you're that concerned about possibly succeeding that you would lean one way or another just to be in the right percentile, you're probably an edge case or close to one, anyway - it's pretty difficult to have a consistent relationship with someone that irrational.
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#23

Post by ZeldaGirl » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:55 pm

^I didn't clarify at the beginning: the couples who were only cohabiting said that they were making a life-long commitment to one another, but didn't want to marry. Those relationships ended more often, thought to partially be caused by the lack of legal tie binding them together. My bad.

EDIT: also, couples who cohabit with the intention of marrying, but continue to delay and delay, are at higher risk.

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#24

Post by Deepfake » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:01 pm

ZeldaGirl wrote:The point is, people who cohabit at great length but don't want to marry show lower levels of commitment to one another in general, typically thought to be due to the lack of legal connection.
That's a polite way to put it. I'd say those likely to avoid marriage have a completely different mindset about commitment and relationships and compromise. It's hard to stay with someone when you're willing to break up with them just because they pissed you off a few times. Those are the people who care more about fictionalized relationships, easily: they don't just fear commitment - they often irrationally use the perception that you cannot undo words (in marriage, in fighting, everything) to justify their lack of commitment.

Legal commitment isn't what frightens people, either, so much as work does. Doing a lot of work for a relationship and suffering mountains of adjustment whilst constantly thinking "this might not work out" is easily the biggest breaker of relationships. Some, maybe most of these people, haven't really learned to love, yet. They're spending too much time afraid their partner isn't up to snuff.
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#25

Post by Kargath » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:48 am

Dowdy Kitchen Man wrote:Isn't that basically the same thing in a case like this?
One is being concerned for the other person, and the other is being horrified at being in the same world as them.
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#26

Post by Marilink » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:28 pm

But the point is that if living together is going to give people the wrong impression, then you shouldn't do it. Like, back in the early Christian church, there were Christians eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols beforehand. Some people were like, "These people are sinning because they're doing that!" and other people were like "That's totally fine!" So Paul said that if you're gonna make people think you're sinning, you shouldn't do it at all. The same kind of situation applies here, if you follow.

Plus, if it's gonna bother you to do it, you shouldn't go against your conscience.
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#27

Post by ZeldaGirl » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:42 pm

But the point is that if living together is going to give people the wrong impression, then you shouldn't do it.
That's a weak argument, ML...why should one individual care what other people's "impressions" of something are? I guess that's my point. That's just silly. You shouldn't limit what your behaviors are because of what someone elses' 'impressions' or thoughts are. Why should I care what others think? That is just playing into conformity and peer pressure.

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#28

Post by Marilink » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:46 pm

I think when it's matters of the soul and when it's people you love and trust that would be concerned for you, their opinions count.
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#29

Post by ZeldaGirl » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:51 pm

Not if the person choosing to cohabit thinks those people are wrong, though. It's perfectly acceptable to be grateful for their loved ones' concern, but still disagree with them. Opinions count only marginally, compared to what the individual making the choice thinks. Perhaps the person cohabiting DOES NOT think it is something that will detrimentally harm their soul.

But my point was that your argument 'if it gives the wrong impression don't do it' is utterly horrible. Because for all they know, they could be dead wrong about their 'impression'. It goes back to what I was saying - who cares about what they *think* is going on - that's no reason to give in to peer pressure and conforming to them attempting to shame you. Basically, what you said is nothing more than a fallacious argument.

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#30

Post by SephirothKirby » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:14 pm

I'm definitely against not doing it.

But I'm just a dumb kid.

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#31

Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:26 pm

My sister and her boyfriend lived together for about half a year, and that gave them a LOT of important insight on their relationship: namely, it wasn't going great. My sister moved out, and we're not sure how much longer the relationship will last. They might make it work, they might not, but basically if they had just dated WITHOUT living together they wouldn't have realized how much trouble they would have living together.

I think it's an important step before even considering getting married-- making sure you and the other party can stand being with one another ALL the time.
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#32

Post by CaptHayfever » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:03 am

Dowdy Kitchen Man wrote:So Paul said that if you're gonna make people think you're sinning, you shouldn't do it at all.
The factor which Paul failed to account for was that at any given time there is somebody who can will interpret absolutely anything they don't like as sinful & who will attempt to spread that interpretation to everyone else.*

If people think a cohabitating couple is doing all sorts of wrong bedroom things [strike]the couple should describe it in detail[/strike]that doesn't mean they are, but no amount of protest will convince the assumers otherwise. Such is not an argument against cohabitation; it's an argument against assumptions. (It's also pretty naive of the assumers to assume that NOT living together is somehow stopping the couple from having sex anyhow.)

If Nomyt thinks I lie, cheat, & steal, even though I don't, no amount of protest from me will convince him otherwise. Under Paul's philosophy, I need to avoid any chance that Nomyt might have to accuse me of dishonesty or theft, but that's not actually possible short of putting myself on 24/7 webcam. We cannot base our lives on other people's misinformed opinions.

ZG: I think if both parties are ready, willing, & able to make the requisite long-term commitments & compromises, they can live together. It's the kind of thing that they need to be sure of first, though, so as to avoid a breakup which would leave one of them homeless.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

*[size=-5]I might add that it's really ironic that Paul of all people, who knew firsthand both the false assumptions about & true lives of both Christians & Romans, would miss that particular detail.[/size]

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#33

Post by ZeldaGirl » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:27 am

ZG: It's the kind of thing that they need to be sure of first, though, so as to avoid a breakup which would leave one of them homeless.
Kind of bouncing off that, it's very important that unmarried couples shouldn't need to rely on the other for anything. There's merit in loving and staying with (and feeling committed to) someone not just because they are helping you out financially. It's powerful to say "I have no material or earthly item that is binding me to you, except that I love you." So, I agree - this should be something that arises out of serious commitment.
If people think a cohabitating couple is doing all sorts of wrong bedroom things the couple should describe it in detailthat doesn't mean they are, but no amount of protest will convince the assumers otherwise. Such is not an argument against cohabitation; it's an argument against assumptions. (It's also pretty naive of the assumers to assume that NOT living together is somehow stopping the couple from having sex anyhow.)

If Nomyt thinks I lie, cheat, & steal, even though I don't, no amount of protest from me will convince him otherwise. Under Paul's philosophy, I need to avoid any chance that Nomyt might have to accuse me of dishonesty or theft, but that's not actually possible short of putting myself on 24/7 webcam. We cannot base our lives on other people's misinformed opinions.
Thanks, this is more of what I was trying to say. :)

I think it's interesting that no one has come up with secular reasons to not move in with one another. Because, likely to most people's surprise, my bf and I have come up with many and that's why we AREN'T moving in together yet. :p

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#34

Post by Deepfake » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:35 am

ML, say it with me: Assumptions are stupid. People should stop making assumptions for the sake of selfish convenience and comfort.
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#35

Post by Jere » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:50 am

Moving toghter can be disastous to a relationship, some part might have a small thing he/she does that will drive the other part away.

This is when it works at it worst, there are relationships that overcome this im sure and that's great, but i just have heard of so many relationships that have ended when they moved togheter.

But of course are you alowed to live together before marrige!
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#36

Post by CaptHayfever » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:08 am

ZeldaGirl wrote:I think it's interesting that no one has come up with secular reasons to not move in with one another.
Well, it sorta stems from what I said before: People who have yet to reach the necessary level of maturity & commitment should not move in together. Way too many people rush into a "serious" relationship based solely on sexual attraction & shallow commonalities, & after a while they can't stand to be near each other anymore.
Also, people who don't have the financial means shouldn't move in together yet either. Even if I had the necessary relationship strength right now, for example, I don't have the necessary economic footing. (Considering that I know what your current job is, Zig, I get the feeling this might've been one of your reasons. ;) )

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#37

Post by Fairlight Excalibur » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:47 am

Got busy, here ya go

I completely disagree with the aforementioned interpretation of Paul's instructions and his alleged oversight, but I will address that separately. It appears the secular reasons are more in demand at the moment, so without further ado:


It is, statistically speaking, bad for your marriage.

I checked into a couple of articles and found that couples who live together prior to being married (or engaged, depending on which article) are up to 40% more likely to be divorced down the road. While I found several articles on this topic, the actual research that was being cited was harder to track down. Most of the research I located required a purchase to obtain the full document, but I do have some snippets:

Links to actual research:
http://www.vifamily.ca/library/cft/cohabitation.html#Do
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/fam/23/1/107/

A couple articles:
Discovery Health "Does living together before marriage lead to divorce?"
3 Reasons Why Researchers Say Living Together Before Marriage is Risky - iVillage
Living Together Before Marriage Letter #1

Quite simply, divorce rates are higher, depression rates are higher, relationships with other family members tend to be more strained, sexual activity (if there is any) is less satisfactory, and most ironically, 20% of cohabiting couples are still unmarried after 5-7 years.


Of course, that is all googled stuff, which is cheating I guess. For my own personal thoughts on the matter:

1. Wrong perspectives
Anyone who goes into cohabitation with this 'trial run' mindset is doing it for the wrong reasons, or at least from my perspective. Bomby referenced this concept on the first page; basically, seeing if you are compatible. My problem with this is that you should not have to live together to figure that out. If your relationship is so unsure that you feel the need to live together just to test it, your relationship is already weak.

2. More drama
What if you break up? Breakups can be nasty, everyone knows that. Broken hearts and drama, lots of crying, etc. On the other hand, some couples simply decide to end it and go their own separate ways without incident. Some even remain friends. But if you live together, now you have the added step of having to move out, finding a new place to live, sorting out the belongings, etc. An average breakup could easily go from a typical separation to a huge dramatic argument once all these extra factors are considered.

3. Marriage of convenience
Along the lines of the previous point, even if the relationship is not going well, some couples inevitably end up staying together simply because they are already together. In this way, they can avoid the extra hassle. Obviously, a marriage founded in such a way is not getting off on the right foot.

4. Added financial tension
This is kind of a no-brainer, but unless the couple have both agreed to joint-accounts (before marriage??? not likely), then there will be discussions of who has to pay for what. Ideally, this would be a simple and easy issue... but we do not live in an ideal world and I see potential for conflict here. It is not guaranteed, but it is certainly a possibility. Quick example: the couple splits the cost of an LCD tv and it eventually breaks. They both paid for it, but who pays to fix it? Since they both own it, it could be argued that they split the cost of repairs 50/50... but what if 80% of the usage was by the man? Is he more responsible than her? After all, he uses it more. This is just one possible scenario out of hundreds.


While a couple of other thoughts crossed my mind, it is 1am and I have to work tomorrow, so I end it there. These are posted to answer ZG's query, not spark a debate. I am too busy as of late to participate in an ongoing argument anyway.

So there you go my friend, that is how my mind ticks. :)

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#38

Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:39 am

If nothing else, I think the "trial run" is a bit off, there. You're trialling if day-to-day living and behaviours are compatible, not if your relationship is up to snuff. And trust me, if you've never encountered someone who you can spend all your time with, only to discover staying in the same house as them drives you insane, then you are some kind of rare case (or never stay with people, which is just as likely). No matter how good you are together as a regular couple, that does NOT instantly carry over to living together. The way you live is different, the way you are at home, how you handle your "down time" now being shared with this other person. It's got nothing to do with whether your relationship is awesome, and everything to do with the honest fact that people are different in a home setting, and sometimes that is a wedge that will drive even a strong couple apart if it's just an uncompromisable situation.

So some people prefer to see if that's going to come up before they go to the trouble (and cost) of the wedding.
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#39

Post by Marilink » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:10 am

I get that assumptions are wrong, but you wouldn't want to give people reasons to assume in the first place...

Besides, that's not the only argument. Even if you think you can do it without having sex, living together every night is one of the biggest temptations out there. You wouldn't want to voluntarily put such a huge temptation in the same house as you, really.

Then again, this is all under the assumption that premarital sex is wrong. Which a lot of you don't think. So I might as well not argue. :P
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#40

Post by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

People assume all kinds of things about me without any reason, so what difference does it make if they assume things for SOME kind of reason? God, people assume things constantly for the most bull****, inane excuses, and they try to foster these judgements against you, even when all you've done is something they personally wouldn't do. This is exactly the same. If anyone EVER suggests that you shouldn't live with someone, because it would be unseemly, that person is being a bastard to you and you need to stop listening to them immediately.

I tell you right now, the kinds of assumptions people made about me, because I married when I was 18, because I married SOMEONE I MET ON THE INTERNET OH NO, because my parents "let me" do these things. It's ****ed up. Stop perpetuating that mentality, man. You shouldn't embrace the culture of JUDGE EVERYONE OH ****, because being apologetic for your own innocent actions is exactly that: accepting and embracing a culture of judgement and bigotry.

Keep in mind, this is not about premarital sex. "Temptation" is whatever you make it to be. If you want to have sex and you're desperately avoiding it, that's just your thing, whatever. But if you want to live with someone, it's no one else's business to sit there and pass judgements about what they assume you're up to. Hell's bells, next you buy a hydroponics set to grow your own delicious watermelon year-round in a greenhouse, and NOW YOU'RE A DRUGGIE AND YOU'RE GROWING POT I KNOW THIS FOR FACT BECAUSE I MADE A FACTUAL ASSUMPTION BASED ON THE SMALLEST INPUT POSSIBLE TRUE STORY.

I know you see how obscenely ridiculous that scenario is. I just hope you see how ridiculous and hurtful it is to everyone ever that it can just "be okay" for you to curb your personal life, just in case someone thinks poorly of what you're doing, and somehow believing that it would be reasonable to do.
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