surprised this hasn't come up yet

[Metal Man]

/me goes LAWN BOWLING SUPER SAYA-JIN ON THE ARGUMENT

Just Kidding.

[Apiary Tazy]

SD, AI please don't try to justify Twilight. It's Teen Girl trash turned up to 11. You state good points and all, but it's handled sloppily. You can throw as many good points at it, but really.

I should also say that saying that everything is fanfiction in a way is stupid and short-sighted. Are you saying that everything is made purely to write about the author having sex with a character, SD?

Also, I've heard more than a few people who are losing arguments say "If you don't like it, don't buy it". It's just an attempt to make the person go away, and make him seem more like a flamer, really. It doesn't affect me.

P.S: I don't care what the difference is really, other than Twilight being worse. :p

[Valigarmander]

so does half of everything the members here love i dont see the difference

But Twilight isn't good suck, like the Super Mario Bros. Super Show.

It's bad suck, like Captain N.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

Uuuuh what? Twilight doesn't require justifying, Tazy. It already exists. It has sold millions of copies the world over and netted the author a lifetime income. There is a reason this happened, and I, as a person interested in the publishing industry, am more than willing to acknowledge those reasons. Not sure why you think I'm justifying it, since frankly, my opinion was made and stated from a position of "I've experienced this, your criticisms aren't all entirely accurate". I can make that judgement because I've read the books and understand why it worked.

Everything is fanfiction, because everything is derivative. Since Twilight isn't literally a fanfiction, I figured we were all on the same page here. If you were all actually comparing Meyer's work to anything Anne Rice has done, I'm going to assume the only exposure you've had to Anne Rice is in movie format (and still aren't using the term "fanfic" literally, anyway). Interview with a Vampire movie =/= Interview with a Vampire novel.

Dude, this isn't an argument.
Fact: Twilight isn't targeted towards you.
Fact: You are not the intended audience.
You can buy it, and I would genuinely appreciate if you did get it and read it (from the library plz she doesn't need more royalties), since all I ever hear is people repeating the same (almost word-for-word) criticisms for the books. I can guarantee, from the experience of reading them for myself, that there are much worse books out there. Twilight is stupid, designed for young teens, but when you accept that it straight up is a teen romance and you are not a fan of the genre, it shouldn't bother everyone so much that it sucks. Do you read teen romance? Paranormal romance? Any sub-genre of romance? ...Fiction at large? No? Then what do you care for the quality of the book?

Like I already said, when things aren't made for you, you're not usually going to critique them. Why has the world got a collective uprising against something they don't otherwise give two ****s about? Man, I can outright ignore things that everyone else loves to death. LOST? Never watched it, don't want to, not going to pretend I have a legitimate opinion of it either. :p

So, did you have a point beside trying to condescend to me?

[CaptHayfever]

I like bingo. And pre-Elmo-rules-the-world Sesame Street. And bocce ("lawn bowl"? pfft).

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

Bocce isn't the same as lawn bowls. Because bocce is awesome.

Honestly, those were the only things I could think of that most people would immediately associate with older people. XD

'Sides, it wasn't meant to be an Infinitely Accurate Assessment! that only the target audience will enjoy any given entertainment, since that's blatantly incorrect. ;)

[Kargath]

Lawn bowls is really difficult. I didn't know about the 'bias' in the balls before I tried it.

[Deepfake]

SD, AI please don't try to justify Twilight. It's Teen Girl trash turned up to 11. You state good points and all, but it's handled sloppily. You can throw as many good points at it, but really.

I didn't justify anything. I was observing that our apparent culture is the root of crap like Twilight. The previous generations have failed so thoroughly in their communications that these gaps in society are possible. Instead of asking how to improve the situation, people damn what they don't understand as a symptom of the path that consumer-culture has taken. Many then glorify the culture for all of its fantastic possibilities.

Just me being jaded, my apologies if my language and concepts are so seperate from the mainstream that they're not immediately apparent. My perspectives tend to come with a bit of acid that makes me sound like a prick, which doesn't tend to help the situation.

[Bomby]

Twilight, suck as it does (judging by the first movie), is not as annoying as people complaining about it has become.

[Apiary Tazy]

I'll admit I gave in to my anger a bit...

It sold well because stupid teens and fanfiction clinged onto it. If it was released maybe 5 years earlier it would have probably tanked. Sure, Meyer made a hit, but it was a lucky hit, since otherwise it would have sunked.

Saying everything is fanfiction is still stupid and shortsighted. This goes to ID as well as anyone who called Twilight fanfiction. Sure, it is akin to a fanfiction writer, but calling something fanfiction just tastes of insinuating that something "leeches off of someone else's ideas" to me.

I'd like someone to tell me what Braid, Death Note, No Country for Old Men, and One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest are fanfictions of. One source per story please.

Does not affect me means does not affect me. If you release a product, it is geared towards everyone unless otherwise states, and last I checked, Twilight is not stated to be a kid's romance novel. Telling people that they aren't allowed to voice their opinion because it's not for them is just silly to me.

It hasn't helped that I've seen Twilight ads everywhere and that anyone working on the movie is going to be hated because they worked on it. I can just see a hit movie starring a Twilight Actor and ther will be a million "Sparkling Vampire" jokes.

....

Hm, It appears I hate the fanbase more than the book.

Also, it's because you're in a foriegn country and can't punch me in the face. :p

(Also, I appeared to have alot of pent-up rage. This'll probably be another topic I never read again. :( )

[Bomby]

It appears I hate the fanbase more than the book.

Humans in general are insufferable.

Until you get to know them.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

Word to the wise, kiddo: every single hit novel is a lucky hit. I'm not joking. Making it big in publishing is a game of chance. Chance that you get the right time and the right publisher who's willing to market your book/s the right way to the right people. Meyer was AMAZINGLY lucky to break into the scene when she did (just like Rowling with HP; Twilight actually followed on the tail of that, since magic was "in"). Paranormal romance is no longer "in". Most publishers won't even look at it anymore. It's over.

Yes. Calling things "fanfiction" is retarded. That's, you know, why I said everything is fanfiction since it's all derivative. If Twilight is fanfiction, so is everything else. Not exactly my choice of description (and another significant factor with my disdain towards people fabricating an opinion based off what other people have said about the series rather than reading it themselves, since all everyone says is "OH IT'S FANFICTION" when it isn't literally fanfiction at all, which, you know, I already said).

Products are never targeted to everyone. If you think that, you're just not completely familiar with marketing. Nevertheless, Twilight is put in the Young Adult section of bookstores and libraries, so the classification is absolutely there. Like I covered before, it's frequently misrepresented as something other than paranormal romance, likely to avoid the negative stigma that "romance" holds, so you can't always trust the little label ("Horror"? NO WTF).

I didn't say you can't have an opinion, nor was there any suggestion that you shouldn't have one. I said that my opinion is based on experience, and what everyone else has said is the same bull**** I've heard five million times before, and it's still not entirely accurate. Probably because the people who complain most heavily haven't read any of them and haven't based their opinion of first-hand experience with the series. If you have read the book and thought it was crap, that's fine. I think it's crap too. But no one needs to make some huge song and dance over how bad it is, because it's a teen-targeted paranormal romance novel and if that's not something you're normally into, it's generally accepted that you're not going to like it anyway.

Let's put it this way: if you don't like drinking coffee, you are welcome to the opinion that coffee tastes like butt. If you know you don't like drinking coffee, you probably won't try the newest variety of coffee, "Sparkle Coffee". If you DO try Sparkle Coffee and still dislike it, you're welcome to think coffee still tastes like butt. However, there's no reason to go on and on about how stupid it is that Sparkle Coffee in particular is that terrible, since you don't even like coffee in the first place.

This is the same. You guys are not romance readers. You don't need to care if this type of romance is bad or not, because you weren't going to read romance anyway. Yes, you may try it out, and you may decide that it's all crap, but it's not made for you, and the people it is designed for are equally welcome to enjoy their Butt-Flavoured Sparkle Coffee, since they like it.

[Deepfake]

^ I more or less agree with that entire post, save the premise that I read the final lines to have. These people are free to exist and enjoy what they enjoy. They should, however, not be.

[Kargath]

I'd like someone to tell me what Braid

Super Mario

[Deepfake]

Everything humans do is derivative. It is how our intelligence functions. Photographs were invented to capture images. These images already existed. Stories arise because we admire stories and wish to write them ourselves. Stories existed to relay information in correspondence to circumstance of being, and to entertain the mind. Everything we do is a response to stimulus. Our ideas cannot exist without pre-corollary input.

You mention a combination of elements as being previously undone, I point out that elements have been combined for ages. You mention storytelling as being an invented practice, I point out that the process is to convey observed information. This is not a difficult chain of progression to follow.

If you insist on being subjective, you cannot lay claim to objectiveness.

[Rubber Band Man]

Shoutsout to Dee for the Blade pic....

[Rainbow Dash]

where is buffy

where is she

[Apiary Tazy]

It appears I let my anger and tiredness get ahead of me a bit. I'm glad we're squared away on publication and calling things fanfiction.

I know that some things are marketed toward certain people but like you said, Twilight has been misrepresented in the past. I suppose that this is why it's hated so much. People expect horror or adventure, and get sexy vampires and depressed teenagers.

I suppose that the phrase "It's not for you" burns me up because of the circles I go to. Usually, when people say this where I go, it's an attempt to get people to stop arguing. But why would I care if I didn't have an interest in the first place? It's a vicious cycle I can't explain and has nothing to do with the argument really.

I tend to forget how incredibly dense people on the internet are, and that denseness doesn't just pertain to video games.

Hm. I believe I've argued with you for nothing. Though, to be fair it's opened my eyes a fair bit.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have Sparkly Butt Coffee to drink.

[CaptHayfever]

I hate beer, but I have tried at least a dozen kinds & found some that are worse or "better" (in relative terms) than others. If I have a friend who likes beer & wants suggestions, I would mention the "better" ones.
It's similar with romance novels. I don't necessarily hate them, but they're not my cup of tea (although tea is my cup of tea, yum). I have looked at several, though, & found some that were worse (Twilight*) or better (Pride & Prejudice) or hilarious (supermarket paperbacks). And while I still don't care for romance novels, if I have a friend who likes them & wants suggestions, I would mention the better ones.

*Admittedly, I didn't read the whole thing...it was actually making me sad & angry & I had to stop before I triggered a bout of depression. For a more literal coffee metaphor: I do hate coffee & think it tastes like butt. I did once, however, taste a chocolate-filled coffee that I was actually able to finish. Twilight has not even a remote suggestion of chocolate in it.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Inferno Dragon]

WOAH! what the hell!I turn my back for a second and a flame war almost breaks out. DAMN!

the reason I call Twilight BAD FANFICTION is because it has all the staples of the kind of bad fanfics you stumble across on the net, just without the typos.

1. Bella is a mary sue
2. the fourth novel completely disregards jacob's character devellopment up to that point and turns him into ****ing PEDOBEAR! *facepalm*
3. edward is devoid of any personality whatsoever and is a godmode sue for being immune to all the traditional weaknesses of vampires. (sunlight, crosses, stakes, garlic, etc)
4. it disregards all the established mythos attached to vampires and werewolves and makes it to where THERE'S NO DOWNSIDE TO BEING A VAMP OR WEREWOLF.
5. it's written poorly with no sense of character devellopment, the last book felt like someone else wrote it entirely, the dialogue is bland, the characters are unlikeable, and the romance feels forced.

the only exception to any of this is Jacob the "werewolf" who does get a good deal of character devellopmentand is actually likeable in new moon and eclipse. but miss myer even screwed up the ONLY good character in the series by making him fall in love with bella's unboarn half-vampire daughter in breaking dawn! GAH! it hurts my brain remembering this stuff!

complain if you want but I suffered though this garbage because a friend of mine FORCED me to. all 4 books, just... GAH!