Storytime on religion and the q-word

[Apollo the Just]

using the q-word to encompass not just sexuality stuff but gender stuff and all that other kinds of stuff

OK, first off, I know there have been about a billion threads about this kind of thing but I wanted to make a new one because I've been thinking about stuff in terms of my own personal experiences a lot more recently.

I don't think it comes as an enormous surprise to anyone that I am not straight, especially considering I jump at every chance to announce that fact, more or less. I did, however, have a bit of an epiphany the other day talking to a friend [we had a really, really long conversation on religion and sexuality] and I wanted to open the subject to discussion.

So, I go to the University of California: hippies [aka Berkeley], wherein basically everyone is the q-word and if they aren't then they are allies and if they aren't allies then they are more or less 'encouraged' to keep that fact to themselves [which is kind of just as bad as non-allies 'encouraging' gays to keep their sexuality to themselves, but that's an entirely different discussion]. The fact that I finally came to a few answers about my sexuality, which had been under questioning for most of my life, here at this college meant that it never actually was a huge part of my life because now that I actually more or less know what it is, it doesn't matter because everyone around me is accepting. If I'd realized a few things growing up back in conservative Hollister, my perception would have been different. Of that much, I'm certain.

But the fact is I figured out my not-straight-ness in an environment where nobody cared, so I came to think of it as not that big of a thing. Until this conversation, when I stopped for the first time and realized that even though the environment I'm currently in is fully accepting and there aren't any problems... that doesn't change the fact that there are a good few people that I am very close to back home, that I grew up with and whom I consider very, very close, that I could never invite to a wedding between myself and another girl.

And it's sad. I know there are some people who, despite having religious beliefs that conflict with my own beliefs, would still think of me as a friend and even though they would disagree with my 'choices' they would respect me and be happy that I'm happy. But I also know that my cello teacher, someone who has been a private mentor for me for over a decade, would sit me down and pray for me and hope to help me or fix me; and that the friend I shared my cello senior recital with would simply not attend because a marriage is between a man and a woman. And I know their opinions of me would change and that knowledge is horrible. I wouldn't even consider ever getting married to a girl before my grandparents passed on, so they wouldn't have to know.

It's just sad, knowing that there are people close to you who would think differently of you if they knew something inherent about you.

--

OK enough of CL storytime. I did want to vent, but I also wanted to have an actual discussion here-- I know I can't be the only one who has had personal experiences with sexuality and religion and conflicting values between friends. If anyone else has a story or an experience, maybe you could share it here? Obviously, to people on the other side of the spectrum as well-- if you are the religious person who had to weigh your values when a friend came out to you, or whatever. Anything.

I wanted to try out a sort of storytime thread where instead of everyone just arguing at each other and making generalizations, we can try just telling our own stories and talking from our own perspectives so that rather than just convincing one another, we can learn from each other or at least try to understand one another.

[[don't mind me. like i said, i do go to hippie school. it's rubbed off a bit ok]]

[Deepfake]

I've been enemies with plenty of closed-minded people, not friends with, though. I am generally pretty hostile to people who are hostile, and let's be real here, I don't fully let it rest with anyone that wants to open their dumb mouth. That said, if you heard me talk I'd probably sound pretty bigoted because I use terms to make fun of the use of those terms and because I don't equate speech with thought. I'm not really anything other than incredibly straight, but I don't see why that should affect who can and can't be friends with me. If I think too hard about the sort of thing I really don't like, I'm maybe even kind of queasy about it, but then again I'm also genetically predispositioned to think Mustard is the flavor from hell (it's what it sounds like, my tongue tells me it tastes kind of like vomit) - yet I don't mind others eating it unless they're going to stink of it, so I can't necessarily blame some people for "feeling" like something is "wrong" - my brain tells me that is poison.

Religion is pretty remarkably rampant in the US, though. It's however important to remember that not every religious person is a bigot just because they participate in a religion that says something is wrong, many of them will respect your privacy. If someone makes their religion my business, though, I'm generally not afraid to disagree in congenial terms and explain why. Keep in mind I come from somewhere that having blue hair made me the antichrist to at least a few people, though. Which kind of makes them seem downright broken, to me. It made me very confrontational in the past.

Thinking back to highschool, there was a lot of calling people gay and so on going on, an naturally that's the kind of thing I would first ask "Yeah and what if I were?" and conclude out loud that they must be coming on to me in less flattering terms that would be frowned on at VGF.

[S1x]

As somebody who has never been convinced why I should care about others' sexuality at all, the only thing I can add for now is

It's just sad, knowing that there are people close to you who would think differently of you if they knew something inherent about you.

is somebody that would do this truly "close to you"?

It's possible I wouldn't go to a wedding between two people, but it would entirely be based on things they did. Judging based only on the genders of each (or any unchangeable quality really) feels like a huge disrespect towards one or both of them.

I also can't think of any religious influences on me, except maybe for some family funerals that took place inside a shrine-looking thing in Japantown

[smol Kat]

I strongly agree with s1x on this. If your "blood" family cannot support you, I see no reason to consider them your family. There are people who care about you, no matter what. That's family.

[ZeldaGirl]

I consider myself straight, but grew up in a very conservative town. I admit, I once was the student who was very religious and spoke openly against being gay and all things related. That is, until several very close friends came out. That was an eye-opening experience, because in the end, I loved my friends too much to believe that who they were was wrong anymore. Now, I lobby heavily for LGBTQ rights, and in doing so, I've certainly shaken up some things in my family. Thankfully, I think my family is beginning to see all of their acquaintances and friends who are gay and coming out, and are beginning to come around as well, but it has certainly caused some strife.

So, I hope it provides you encouragement, CL, to find that perhaps some people may surprise you, and that, while not always, some people may change. Perhaps not, but there may just be a few friends that come around and realize that there is so much more to life than their singular experience or their rigid, narrow belief systems.

[The Missing Link]

So... I don't make it unknown that I'm a follower of Jesus. I'm not using the word Christian or Christianity here on purpose; I'm currently on my second deconstruction of what all of this, for lack of a better word, religion thing is with me, rebuilding my faith up from the fundamentals yet again. So I'll tell the story of how I got here and the perspectives I've had over the course of my journey. :)

So I grew up in Ohio. I don't know if this is the part of the so-called "Bible Belt" or not, but I grew up as a Christian, specifically in the UCC denomination (though my church, I don't think, followed the complete UCC doctrine to the letter, as I'll get to later). I also, during college and immediately thereafter, was working at a company at the local US Air Force installation, and you can imagine what I mean when I say that that environment was a literal Republicanism echo chamber. Mix that background with the fact that the first real morsels of Christianity that I bit into were of the Protestant/evangelical sort.

So as I was forming my opinion on politics and religion, I drank a lot of that up... and since quite a bit of that has some significant overlap, well, I became... I wouldn't say anti-GLBT, but it was something that didn't make sense to me at all, and I didn't have a lot of sympathy for that mindset. Mix that with the fact that college (as they do) pushed diversity really hard and the fact that a non-issue interaction escalated pretty badly on the floor of my dorm, and I became a little hostile to the D-word. In short, I really didn't have a lot of love for GLBT (the Q hadn't been added to the acronym at that point), though while I was generally against homosexuality at that point, I really didn't go out of my way to be snippy over it. Though at the same point, I never really had any encounters with anyone of that persuasion (except for once online, which was pretty harsh negative).

Then in 2006 I moved to Seattle, and in mid 2007 I started actively going to a new church. This is where the first reconstruction of my religion took place, and I had to unlearn A LOT of what I took for granted as obvious truths and dash them all and rebuild my entire character. It was then when I realized a lot of character traits, opinions, and beliefs that were either outright wrong or somewhat terrible and began to rebuild my personality. It was also, due to a distinct shift in the group of friends and environments around me, that I shifted politically as well... though I really didn't finish that transition until about 2011.

Over the course of those four or five years, it occurred to me that politics and Christianity aren't actually a good mix whatsoever. In fact, anyone who goes so far as to directly link the two together by way of saying how one should vote based upon Biblical prerogatives does a horrible disservice to Christianity. Certainly, there are times where I feel we should be called upon to make a stand on sociopolitical issues in order to defend those need defending are due, but as part of a larger overarching theme, I disagree with it entirely. There was a line in one of the songs that we sing at church that really struck me significantly: "That we shouldn't wait for the governments to move." In essence, when something needs doing, it is the obligation of Christians to immediately act upon it instead of simply appealing to some political party or to some senator that this is a thing that needs doing, you go do it thank you very much. The net result was that I became politically pro-homosexuality; however, religiously my stance was neutral. Because I didn't really know how to absolve the dilemma between those choice, quoted passages in the Bible re: homosexuality versus a God that was all-loving. So for me, I simply tabled the whole issue, decided not to take a stance on it. And I did this primarily because I still didn't have a strong experience with someone who was GLBTQ. The strong inner debate hadn't come up, so it was my obligation to not be preliminarily judgmental to those ends.

Now of course, my perspective is that "religion" and "Christianity" are actually terrible... and that neither of the two are things that Jesus actually wants or created. I know wholesale that Jesus, if one reads the New Testament, essentially had as his main followers traitors to Judaism (Matthew the tax collector) and early equivalents of terrorists (Simon the Zealot). Also, hearing some messages about a follower-of-Jesus missionary in Beirut and his stories amongst the Muslims have made me look at people who follow Jesus not necessarily having to be "Christians" and vice versa. (I'm sure we all have self-claimed Christians who don't really follow Jesus' lead in many ways.) Extrapolating upon those notes, knowing that Jesus brought people to him from all walks of life, from all manners of thinking and being, I can't help but know that, in today's world, Jesus would be showing love towards GLBTQ folk and would frequently be among them, much to the protestation of some religious organizations (essentially the modern-day Pharisees).

I still haven't had to firmly wrestle with the issue of whether or not GLBTQ folk can be saved, how they're saved, what they must do to be saved, and all that. And so I can't say that I have had the impetus to deeply investigate that question. However, in my second reconstruction of my faith, a strong part of me wonders if we can know who is saved on this side of the pearly gates. And perhaps more importantly if the question of who will be saved is even an important one. Because Jesus doesn't spend a lot of time really delving into that question; he simply says, "Hey, come follow me, for I'm the way." End of story.

I've probably rambled on too long about things. But perhaps, like ZG, it gives you hope that people can change. Because I certainly have.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

You have doubters and detractors no matter what decision you make with your married life, Lady. And the rest of your major choices, too, if we're being really honest. People in my circle questioned my marriage, because I was young, he was foreign, they didn't know him (as if they needed to, they weren't the one marrying him, right?), and probably even a few other points I never heard about. Obviously the reasons behind people's sense of entitlement to judging your life is all different, and there's a bigger gap between something as simple as "DON'T GET MARRIED YOUNG" versus "DON'T BE GAY". But some people are just worse buttholes about their judgements, no matter how big or small the issue. All you can do is be inclusive of them if they're not abusive (invite them to the wedding even though you know they probably wouldn't come, etc), and make your limits perfectly clear. If they are not welcome to discuss your queerness because they're being turds, tell them so, because you can value a relationship without purposefully seeking discord where there is a serious discrepancy in option. I guess you could tell them so without calling them turds, but that's up to you. ;)

[1-up Salesman]

^Those freaking Americans, taking our jobs...

CL, as far as me, see: most of TML's post, I guess. I think you're super cool and that stuff isn't really my business, I guess; what's more, it doesn't change the fact at all that you're extremely friendly and fun to see on here and Facebook. I like you a lot.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

I don't think it comes as an enormous surprise to anyone that I am not straight, especially considering I jump at every chance to announce that fact.

I'm curious why non-straight individuals often like to do that. You can't speak for everyone, I know, but why do you feel like you should? I have my own thoughts on the matter and I'd like your input.

[Deepfake]

^Those freaking Americans, taking our jobs...

Nobody cares about that as long as you don't have brown skin.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

^ I'd be just as mad if any race came from another country to steal our jobs, although English speaking thieves would be more preferable, I admit.

[I am nobody]

I'm curious why non-straight individuals often like to do that. You can't speak for everyone, I know, but why do you feel like you should? I have my own thoughts on the matter and I'd like your input.

Why do others happily announce their religion, career, hobbies, etc? That's what people do when something is a significant part of their identity, especially if they've been forced to repress it in the past.

[The Missing Link]

^ I was going to say something like that, but I didn't have the proper time to word my thoughts this morning. But yes. I think we as human beings only notice when we do things like that when it involves a subject that we are not.

[smol Kat]

I want to add that I do that as a heterosexual individual, so.

[LOOT]

I'm curious why non-straight individuals often like to do that. You can't speak for everyone, I know, but why do you feel like you should? I have my own thoughts on the matter and I'd like your input.

Let me get this down as well as shooting down another issue.

If I recall there are still around six countries in the world that punish homosexuality with death, with many more prohibiting same sex marriage and plenty of ostracizing in the majority of the world. Coming out and expressing that you are ***** is taking a stand against any injustice against non-hetero relations.

On that matter, "Straight Pride" is one of the most ****ing idiotic things to be spawned in this world and anybody who participates in such an event should reexamine their life because it is very clearly flawed if you need to pride yourself even more in not being discriminated against.

[Apollo the Just]

IRHP, though you're correct in saying I can't speak for any others, for me at least I have finally found the answer to a question I have been struggling with my entire life, so I'm happy to finally have this discovery and am proud of it. Also, since I have been assumed straight until proven otherwise in the past, it clarifies the dating pool to let other people know where I stand in case they might be interested, considering how scary and awkward it is to have a gay crush on someone you think is straight (or vice versa). Letting people know you aren't straight is just clarifying where you stand on the dating availability/compatibility chart, same as clarifying whether or not you are single IMO.

Also, another reason is the same reason I made this thread to begin with. My sexuality is a secret to quite a few people in my life because I am afraid knowledge of it will drastically change their opinion of me. Suffice it to say that it influences my life in a very real way so when given an opportunity to talk about it freely, such as with close friends or online or in Berkeley, I will gladly do so. It's freeing.

But, I really want to encourage speaking from and about personal experiences in this thread rather than talking for anyone else, even if you're on their side or part of their group so to speak. All y'all with opinions probably have something that's happened to you or about you that has influenced why you feel the way you do. Why don't you just share it and get it off your chest and tell us WHY you feel the way you do and then at least if we all disagree with and judge each other, for this one thread we can keep that to ourselves. I want to see what happens if we respond to an opinion we don't like with a meaningful and personal story rather than all caps and asterisks. :{P

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also, ZG and TML, I did not know that bout either of you but I'm definitely feeling less pessimistic about things right now so thank you (and thank you for sharing!!)

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[why do I have a feeling this thread is going to give me a reputation as the hippie of VGF]

[RinkuTheFirst]

I don't know if it's known to anyone who doesn't frequent WoT, but I'm bisexual (heavily leaning towards one side of the spectrum, at that). I'm also an atheist. I've never had much inner conflict with beliefs and sexuality, as a result.

I didn't really outwardly admit my sexuality until college, and even now, only some of my closest friends know. I never tell my coworkers (mostly female; I fear they'd think I was constantly ogling them or something), my employers (last I checked, sexuality isn't a protected class in Alabama), my family (mostly conservative Southerners, beliefs are exactly what you'd expect), or anyone I knew before college. There's obviously been a lot of conflict with that, mostly internal. It hurts that I can't tell these people. I can never tell my mother, because I fear that she'd judge me and change her opinion of me. It's awful, but I try to not think about it too much.

[monstrman]

I don't have conflicting ideals with homosexuality in friendships, but I do have conflicting ideals with religion in my own family. I mean, at the end of the day it's not really the same thing, but my mom cried when I told her I was an atheist. I guess it's kind of similar in a way, because she really tried her hardest to raise me as a "proper christian boy" and my grandparents would be severely disappointed if they found out, but I think my family is close enough for that not to really matter to them that much. At the end of the day, everyone has to be there for each other, y'know? I kind of feel that way about the whole world, to be honest. If everyone was there for everyone else, it would just be a much better place to live. You guys are all great, but there are a lot of really selfish people out in the world who never bother to poke their head out of the scope of their own life long enough to realize they are being really ignorant and stupid.

I guess that's kind of what the whole religion vs sexuality thing boils down to. Perhaps not in every case, but I feel like often enough people are just so set in their ways and so concerned with themselves that they don't realize what they are doing or saying. Like homosexuality is wrong to them so it can't be right because everyone has to think the way they do. I think there are some other reasons (wanting to save people, etc etc) but the really bigoted ones just seem selfish to me.

I've personally never had a problem with homosexuality, and at least half a dozen of my friends have come out and we all get along fine. I don't really care for people who openly voice against homosexuality, but I'm not going to actively tell them to shut up because at the end of the day it takes all kinds I guess. I kind of have a weird perspective on the world.

Anyway, this whole rambly post probably doesn't really make much sense but I guess what I'm saying is I can empathize with a lot of these situations.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

I'm curious why non-straight individuals often like to do that. You can't speak for everyone, I know, but why do you feel like you should? I have my own thoughts on the matter and I'd like your input.

I know for absolute fact that I have seen you say, on more than one occasion, something which makes your heterosexuality abundantly clear. Even comments about how you find a particular woman attractive is announcing your preference to the world. You might not state, "I'm straight," (though in relevant conversations around VGF, you totally have), but you are no less declaring your identity than anyone from the LGBTQ spectrum with your words and actions.

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[why do I have a feeling this thread is going to give me a reputation as the hippie of VGF]

what are you talking about you have been our resident hippie pirate for ages already

[Marilink]

I don't feel like I have much to add, because I don't really have a personal story on the matter. But I would just like to say that you are a cool cat and we love you, CL <3