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This topic is full of spoilers. It's in the title, so I'm not going to use spoiler tags unless a mod says so. You've been warned. Twice.

So I finally beat Final Fantasy XII. I was honestly over-leveled for the final battle, because I've done all of the hunts except for Ixion, the Behemoth King, the Seer, the Hell Wyrm, and Yiazmat. I don't know if I'm going to even try Yiazmat, as he makes Ruby, Emerald, Ozma, Omega (VIII), Penance, Omega (V), and Omega (VI) combined look like farts on a high wind. I'll probably go after everyone else - though if I go after this game's Omega I might as well go after Yiazmat too. Optional bosses can be such a pain.

So, yes. I beat the game. And it was awesome. The characters, the storytelling, the plot, the interactions, all of it was great, and every time I think Team Ninja is the king of FMVs, Square comes out and slaps the Hell out of me.

Fighting Gilgamesh in this game is awesome, at least partially because Gilgamesh rules. If you fight him and recognize his voice, it's because he's voiced by John Di Maggio, one of the best voice actors in the business (Bender from Futurama, the Scotsman from Samurai Jack, and about a billion others). Awesome. Awesome.

This topic can be for gushing, but it can also be for arguing. I will name points that I found awesome that some people here didn't seem to like, and I expect an argument from people who disagree.

1. The presentation here was breathtaking, probably the best and most cinematic storytelling of any videogame I've ever seen. I don't get complaints here, as this was literally the best presentation for any game I've ever seen.

2. The huge, kingdom-spanning plot full of politics and men rebelling against the gods was also great. I especially like how Vayne wasn't so much a true bad guy, seeing himself as a savior who would free the men from the tyranny of the gods, and in that respect he actually won.

3. The characters were rad. Everybody. Fran, Basch, Balthier, Ashe, Penelo, and yes, even Vaan. Complaints about Fran seem almost like a joke. Penelo as a character I really liked, and don't understand complaints about her being "unnecessary", which is something I will talk about in my next point. I even liked Vaan, not only because he actually sounded and acted like a teenager but because a big part of the game's appeal was watching him grow as a pirate and as an individual.

4. The subtlety of characterization here was likewise great. There were no moments where the game slapped you in the face and said "THIS IS EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT [character] SO PAY ATTENTION." That's something that's been missing from every other FF I've played, and it's nice to see Squeenix going that extra mile to make their development more organic. And more than that, there were so few moments that screamed "We can't do this without you!" and that's a cliché we can all live without. Penelo was a great example of a character who was there for the sake of being a character, exemplifying why this game felt less artificial than the norm.

5. Good, long game. I finished after about eighty hours because I got the Ultimate Sword and did quite a few hunts. If I get all of everything you can pretty easily tack on another forty hours. Makes it really satisfying to finish, especially since everything you do is pregnant with narrative and importance.

6. This game was conspicuously lacking in wah-wah bull crap about the living planet and dreams of stars and flowers and birds all being friends. It's a more honest narrative, stark in a way that none of the games in this series have been for a long, long time.

So yes, this game is awesome.

Let's talk about how awesome it is.

Hooray! Someone else thought this was a good game besides me!

It's weird how monster levels jump from the 45s (in Ridorana) to the 60s (in places like the Great Crystal and the Subterrane and all those optional places). Is there anywhere where I can find monsters in the level 51-52 range to level up?

Characters that were cool:
Balthier
Ashe
Balthier
Basch
Balthier
Reddas
Balthier
Vossler
Balthier
Miguelo
Balthier
Gilgamesh
Balthier
Vayne
Balthier
Gabranth
Balthier
Bergen
Balthier
Vossler
Balthier
Al-Cid (yes, he was cool)
Balthier
Cidolfas
Balthier
Ondore
Balthier
Gramis
Balthier
Ba'Gamman
Balthier

Characters that suck:
Vaan
Panelo
Larsa
Fran
Ghis
Any Viera
Kites

Basically, FFXII was a game for gamers and not for intractive movie watchers. I've always come to praise FFXII with the slogan "get back in the game."

-CSM

Where the hell did ZeldaGirl's post go?

Also, all those characters you do not like are totally cool. Biggest turn-a-round would be for that Viera on Mt. Bur-Omisace after you complete the Fafnir hunt.

And if you want to level up to that range I'd fight in the Ridorana ascents for a while, then go into the Nabreus Deadlands.

^I bet it became the Shanebot's lunch. -CSM

Where the hell did my post go?

^Just repost it. -CSM

Poo. My post got eaten too.

Anyway, I didn't post much. Since most of my opinion of FF12 can be found throughout this forum.

In summary, it sucked.

I would not describe this game as "awesome" or "rules" in any sense.

Fran is a giant bunny in a skimpy outfit. That's just wrong.

Panelo is a waste of oxygen.

Vaan = Manzier.

Heh, "great story"...good one.-jay

It's like Jay found a way to bottle concentrated Wrong and sell it as a soft drink.

It's like it blew his mind so much, the sheer radiance of it caused him to flee from it in terror and denial.

This game is so awesome.

More seriously, Jay, I'd argue with you, but you're not presenting any reasons for your opinion, so I can either assume you can't think of anything (understandable) or you're just here trolling. If it's the former, you know, cool, no beef, but if it's the latter then I'm asking you to stop.

If it's laziness, feel free to just post your reasons and we can actually have a discussion.

^He brought up the characters that sucked and left out ALL the good ones. Frankly, Jay took all that actually DID suck about the game and put that in the forefront and leave all that was awesome by the wayside.

Everything Jay said is right except "In summary, it sucked." -CSM

Now now, no need to get upset because I insulted your new bff, FF12. No need to belittle me by calling me a troll.

Like I said. I've presented my lists of things I hated about FF12 countless times in these forums. So it's not from lazyness. More from simply being tired of the repetition.

But if it will make you happy...

Here are the things I actually enjoyed about FF12:
-Baltheir (Duh)
-The whole action/MMO battle system was interesting, and kept my interest for the most part. But it did get repetitive. And I never got into the gambit system. And I felt like sometimes the game got too bogged down in fighting countless dudes as you walk accross endless fields. (So you could put some of this in the next list below...)
-The hunts were entertaining.
-The graphics were top notch, but this is Square, so that's expected.
-Oh, Bashe was also pretty cool. But the game needed to develop the whole thing with his brother more. A lot more. It was the only "real" interesting part of the plot, and it was such a small part.

And that's really it.

Things that I hated in FF12 (That I can remember off the top of my head):
-Fran (As discussed before. I hate her voice, and I hate the whole sex-bunny thing. It just doesn't do anything for me.)
-Panelo (I don't see how you can not say she's pointless...since she literally had no point in the game.)
-Vaan (Again, manzier wussy. Also fairly pointless, outside of that one small event with his brother.)
-Ashe (A pretty cool character, who could probably go in the other list, but I just think it's funny that she's a selfish bitch the entire game.)
-The Lisence Board (Hands down the most boring, most annoying, and simplist skill system ever invented. Not only is it simply annoying that you need to use it to use any weapon, but it's way too simple and becomes pointless not too long into the game.)
-Not having unique skills/weapons for each character (Pet peeve. Something I just enjoy more than having generic characters.)
-Limit Breaks (Or whatever the hell they were called in this game) I think were just done poorly. Sure, they did massive damage, but they didn't feel as cool as the Limit Breaks in the past.
-Espers (Which were more or less meaningless in this game.)
-Random chests (Way to make finding treasure pointless, Square.)
-The story. I don't care how "epic" you think the "storytelling" was, but I thought it was terrible. Sure, some of the bad guys were cool, but the actions of the heros made little sense over the course of the game. It was a game of simply following Ashe around as she did random stuff for whatever reason (let's go get the Sword of Kings! let's go get the Treaty Blade now! let's go here now! let's destory the empire! no, let's save Dalmasca! no, I'll become queen! no, let's go destory the empire again! let's make nethicite! let's destory nethecit! Etc.). I don't know what you saw in it, but the story of the game did not pull me in one single bit. I simply couldn't care less about Dalmasca. I couldn't care less about what the stupid Empire was planning to do. There just wasn't any meat in there. By the end of the game, I really had no idea what I had just accomplished, and I really didn't care anymore. The "epic storytelling" of this game reminded me more of a cheap B-rate hollywood movie than anything else. Sure, I can see you disagreeing with me on this more than anything else, but I don't know what to tell you. The story was terrible.
-Oh, and the music was rather bland for the entire game, and I can recall nothing that I would ever care to listen to again.

There was probably more I didn't like, but that's all I can recall off the top of my head.

I hope this was enough to appease you, oh great Wy, fighter of trolls.

So there you go. I don't see why there's a need for discussion. No need for arguement. Since you'll most likely just disagree with me about everything. I simply didn't like or enjoy the game at all. And since that wasn't enough for you, I've given you my reasons. So are you going to continue to insult me and call me a troll simply because I didn't like your favorite game in the world? Alright then.-jay

I liked every part of the story except for the most important part: the way it was executed.

I'll also admit that I don't like the whole "Let's go get X item!" part, but compared to FF games of recent memory it was much less in this than in others. Remember FFX? The whole damn game was like that. -CSM

Don't get me wrong...I didn't think this game was bad. I actually gave it an "Above Average" score in my belated review. (I use a system where "50" is "Average".)

I felt some of the cons like lack of character development held the game down. It certainly WAS new for Square-Enix, and they actually did get the MMO-system down pretty well.

The gambit system was probably what I liked best about Final Fantasy XII. It's very customizable, much moreso than Namco's "Tales of" games. (In which Natalia STILL uses items when I tell her NOT too) Even if it did generate the feeling that I wasn't actually playing if I put Bravery or Berserk on Vaan.

But still, one person showed me his gambit settings and super-powerful Penelo. He'd run around dungeons with her just killing everything, and not a single gambit told her to attack.


Penelo and Balthier were actually my favourite characters. Balthier because he and Ashe are the true heroes of the game and Penelo because...Well, she is your best mage, and her little portrait is cute.


I do wish that Square-Enix would clean up their character models though...It bothers me that everyone, especially Vaan and Baasch look like they're covered in grease and dirt in the cutscenes. It almost makes them look like they're made out of porcelain or stoned during some scenes...

Perrin Aybara wrote:Now now, no need to get upset because I insulted your new bff, FF12. No need to belittle me by calling me a troll.

Sorry, Jay, didn't realize you were so sensitive about it. If I had, I wouldn't have said anything. I apologize if I offended you, though you can hardly blame me for going there given your normal method of "debate".

But if it will make you happy...

Joy.

And I never got into the gambit system.

Not the game's fault - the Gambit system is easily one of the best combat systems in any game period, much less in an RPG. Nothing like being able to adjust your Gambits to kick the ass of that new boss, of realizing that you need a new Bubblbe Gambit to fight that damn Fafnir or Disma because they do like three thousand damage a round. You get out of the Gambit system what you put into it.

And I felt like sometimes the game got too bogged down in fighting countless dudes as you walk accross endless fields.

Not only is it almost impossible for the game to get boged down in this since by th time you re-tread ou can usually three-shot or even one-shot mosto of the previous enemies, you can always just hold R2, you know. Weeeee.

-Oh, Bashe was also pretty cool. But the game needed to develop the whole thing with his brother more. A lot more. It was the only "real" interesting part of the plot, and it was such a small part.

Well, you're wrong on the part about it needing more screentime: it was given exactly the right amount of coverage. Nothing would have ruined the honesty and subtlety of that relationship like an expository flashback about what split them apart in the first place. By the end you know everything you need to know, and everything that needed to be said has been said. Adding exposition between Basch and Noah would have cheapened it, not made it better.

-Fran (As discussed before. I hate her voice, and I hate the whole sex-bunny thing. It just doesn't do anything for me.)

While I can attribute you disliking her voice to a problem with your hearing, reducing her character to "sex bunny" suggests you just weren't paying attention. It would be one thing if Fran's sexuality were a defining part of her character - or, Hell, if it was even mentioned in passing at any point. But it's not. There's no single defining characteristic of Fran, but the most important parts of her character involve her relationship with her sisters, her sense of being cut off from the world (except for Balthier, apparently), and her attunement to the Mist. Reducing her character based on her appearance is probably the most shallow (even pig-headed) thing in your entire post. Fran as a character kicks ass.

-Panelo (I don't see how you can not say she's pointless...since she literally had no point in the game.)

No, wait, I've got what you mean. What you actually wanted out of this was for every character to have some moment where everybody else stands around and says "we can't do this without yooooooooooooou" while some rockin' tunes play and they use their one super-special skill to get the rest of the team out of a jam! YEAH!

Yeah no.

The appeal of Penelo - and the characterization of the cast by and large - is exactly in that she's a normal person who's along for the ride. Her whole point lies in her characterization, how she rows and changes through the story. She's not pointless, she's organic, and I'd rather have someone who grows organically than someone who saves the rest of the party through wild circumstance any day of the week.

-Vaan (Again, manzier wussy. Also fairly pointless, outside of that one small event with his brother.)

The pointlessness argument has already been addressed, the "manzier" thing is just consistent with the game's (excellent) aesthetic theme, and I'd hardly call him a wuss, considering it was nearly him and not Reddas that did that cool-ass thing at Ridorana. I know I'm alone in the whole forum in terms of liking Vaan, but at the very least his characterization is honest and you can't deny that he grows a lot throughout the game.

-Ashe (A pretty cool character, who could probably go in the other list, but I just think it's funny that she's a selfish bitch the entire game.)

She comes across as a selfish bitch for the first couple of hours, until you take into consideration she literally has the weight of the world on her shoulders. It would be one thing if she were acting for herself, but she's not - she's acting primarily for her kingdom, and after that for her husband's memory. What she does at Ridorana illustrates how much she's willing to give up in exchange for the safety of her people, and the sheer degree of sacrifice there is staggering. You miss the point magnificently if all you can characterize Ashe as is "selfish".

-The Lisence Board (Hands down the most boring, most annoying, and simplist skill system ever invented. Not only is it simply annoying that you need to use it to use any weapon, but it's way too simple and becomes pointless not too long into the game.)

Right, because all those other systems in the other games were so intricate and complicated too. No, the License Board does exactly what it sets out to do - set limitations on your actions early in the game and then open the door wide for you later on.

-Not having unique skills/weapons for each character (Pet peeve. Something I just enjoy more than having generic characters.)

Oh man, you're right! It's like you can assign specific roles to any given character! They sure as hell didn't do that in FF1, FF3, FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8, and FF10! Wait yes they did. The point behind the license board is that you can make any given character fulfill any role you want them to fill, and they do have to fulfill specific roles. If you have three characters who try to do everything all at once, you aren't going to be able to do aything at all, or near enough to nothing that it doesn't matter.

-Limit Breaks (Or whatever the hell they were called in this game) I think were just done poorly. Sure, they did massive damage, but they didn't feel as cool as the Limit Breaks in the past.

By the end of the game there was no particular point in using them. Their chief utility in the first place is to get you out of really tough spots where it was probable the enemy could kill you before you killed them, like a boss going into critical health (I'm willing to bet you could kill the Undying before he sets up his perfect defense), and in that sense they never lose their utility, but outside of desperation attacks you shouldn't use them in the first place.

And the application here was better than any other desperation system in the history of the series. Making them interactive, combo-able, succinct, and the coolest-looking special moves in the game was the best thing Square did for limit breaks.

-Espers (Which were more or less meaningless in this game.)

If you didn't know how to use them. Cuchulainn rules, and you use Zodiark's final attack and tell me there's no point in using him when he does 50k damage to every enemy onscreen. There's a reason to go out and collect other Espers, you know, that being chiefly that Belias is only useful for just so long.

-Random chests (Way to make finding treasure pointless, Square.)

No chest is completely random. I got the ultimate gun for Balthier through a "random" chest, which he held up until the time I gave him the Ultima Sword (because I had just beaten Gilgamesh and given Basch the Masamune). And if you use the Diamond Armlet, you will have a lot of Elixirs onhand.

-The story. I don't care how "epic" you think the "storytelling" was,

....Just out of curiosity, how can you put the word "storytelling" in sarcastic quotations? Are you suggesting something else, as if the storytelling isn't actually storytelling? Nevermind the fact that the storytelling itself isn't epic - that would be quite a feat - so much as the story is.

but I thought it was terrible. Sure, some of the bad guys were cool, but the actions of the heros made little sense over the course of the game.

This is where your argument starts to really fall apart. Made little sense?

It was a game of simply following Ashe around as she did random stuff for whatever reason (let's go get the Sword of Kings! let's go get the Treaty Blade now! let's go here now! let's destory the empire! no, let's save Dalmasca! no, I'll become queen! no, let's go destory the empire again! let's make nethicite! let's destory nethecit! Etc.).

Jay, big hint: if there's a stated purpose behind every action, it's not random. If you get the Sword of Kings to destroy the nethicite Vayne is using as a weapon, that's not random. If you get the Treaty Blade to cut the Sun-cryst at the behest of the gods, that's not random either. The matter of destroying the empire vs. saving the world, revenge vs. salvation, is thematic throughout the game. There is nothing lacking in anything you mentioned.

I don't know what you saw in it, but the story of the game did not pull me in one single bit. I simply couldn't care less about Dalmasca. I couldn't care less about what the stupid Empire was planning to do. There just wasn't any meat in there.

It's one thing to say that you don't care for the story - that just means you don't have taste. It's another to claim that there's no meat, which equates to there actually being nothing there to be entertained by. I have come to the only logical conclusion: during any cutscene longer than five seconds, you went to McDonald's to get a cheeseburger. You should not do that, Jay, you end up missing out on a lot of stuff.

By the end of the game, I really had no idea what I had just accomplished, and I really didn't care anymore.

I can only conclude, speaking quite seriously, that you weren't paying attention. You thought Vayne was speaking metaphorically when he talked about throwing off the chains of the gods? You think Venat was talking some hippie crap when he talked about the new age of man? The end of the hands of the Undying? The preservations of a kingdom and three empires? I mean, are you kiding? C'mon. C'mooooon.

The "epic storytelling" of this game reminded me more of a cheap B-rate hollywood movie than anything else. Sure, I can see you disagreeing with me on this more than anything else, but I don't know what to tell you. The story was terrible.

Well I know what to tell you! And I already did. You're so wrong it's like you could use it to power your car.

-Oh, and the music was rather bland for the entire game, and I can recall nothing that I would ever care to listen to again.

A matter of taste, the subject of another rant entirely, but it fulfilled its role and fit the context nicely.

I hope this was enough to appease you, oh great Wy, fighter of trolls.

Quite.

So there you go. I don't see why there's a need for discussion. No need for arguement. Since you'll most likely just disagree with me about everything. I simply didn't like or enjoy the game at all. And since that wasn't enough for you, I've given you my reasons.

The exact point of this kind of discussion is the fostering of discussion - not arguing for arguing's sake but the exchange of ideas. Yes, that activity has its own merit. It's perfectly acceptable for you to not like the game, but be prepared for me to call you on it and try to tear your reasoning to pieces.

So are you going to continue to insult me and call me a troll simply because I didn't like your favorite game in the world? Alright then.-jay

I invite you to point out where I insulted you (I didn't), and apologize if it came across that way, but you can hardly blame me for accusing you of trolling if that's basically what you're doing.

And no, obviously not.

Crazyswordsman]I liked every part of the story except for the most important part: the way it was executed.[/quote] What does that even mean? You keep saying you don't like the execution but you never offer up what you mean by it. Explain wrote:I felt some of the cons like lack of character development held the game down.

There was no lack of character development, just a lack of pointless exposition. The character development here was subtle, and completely appropriate, dropping the clumsy, almost childish characterization of past games (OH BOY HERE'S EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT CLOUD'S PAST YOU BETTER PAY ATTENTION).

I do wish that Square-Enix would clean up their character models though...It bothers me that everyone, especially Vaan and Baasch look like they're covered in grease and dirt in the cutscenes. It almost makes them look like they're made out of porcelain or stoned during some scenes...

Clean your screen.

Aaaand I'm spent.

Final Fantasy XII still rules your faces.

^The execution is in the fact that it wasn't in-depth enough. The story was probably THE best idea I've EVER seen for a game. But what I hope for in this kind of story is several epic battles in war, and cases where the tide turns from one side to the other, similar as to how FFVI did it with the Empire having the upper hand, then the Returners, then the Empire again, and then the Returners again, and then the Empire again. The momentum shifts are what made that story very well executed. Whereas with FFXII, it seems more like, as Jay said, "Let's go get this thing!" as supposed to enlisting allies and using them immediately in a huge battle. -CSM

[QUOTE=Crazyswordsman]^The execution is in the fact that it wasn't in-depth enough. The story was probably THE best idea I've EVER seen for a game. But what I hope for in this kind of story is several epic battles in war, and cases where the tide turns from one side to the other, similar as to how FFVI did it with the Empire having the upper hand, then the Returners, then the Empire again, and then the Returners again, and then the Empire again. The momentum shifts are what made that story very well executed. Whereas with FFXII, it seems more like, as Jay said, "Let's go get this thing!" as supposed to enlisting allies and using them immediately in a huge battle. -CSM[/QUOTE]
I'm, uh....I don't think you mean you have a problem with presentation. You have a problem with the plot itself, namely in that there aren't enough large-scale battles. And there aren't enough power shifts.

See, though, the thing about that kind of power shift happening hear is that it wouldn't be believable. Archades has the nethicite the whole time; the entire story is about building power to be able to confront them, which is exactly what the climax was. There was no lack of confrontation here, it was just done in a smarter way. This is just better story-telling. This isn't a fetch-quest so much as it is a quest for power, a story of struggle against something insurmountable (especially true with the Undying) which culminates in battle, which makes more sense and frankly makes for a better plot.

I found your post to be pretty condescending and belittling, Wy. You asked for my reasons, and I gave you my opinion of the game. I don't really appreciate my opinion not being respected.

I feel the list of problems that I had with FF12 were pretty reasonable and not without merit. Personally, I don't like being told that it's my fault when I don't enjoy a game to its fullest. (Because, as you said, I'm a deaf, blind, troll of a moron who can't understand a simple game because I'm too busy feeding my face at McDonalds.)

But I don't feel like I need to defend my opinion any more, since you won't respect it.

So yeah, I give up. You win, Wy. FF12 is a perfect game without flaw. I was a fool to question it.-jay

Hey, man, I apologize. I didn't mean to come across like that. The post wasn't meant to be mean - it was meant largely to be a sort of friendly ribbing at worst. I thought I would have made that clear through some of the more over-the-top things and through apologizing for my potential tone in my previous post, but apparently I failed in that and I apologize there too.

That said, I'm not sorry for arguing with your points. I respect your opinion, but that doesn't mean I have to leave well enough alone.

^^^No, it's the presentation. The fact that the large scale battles that probably happened were not shown is a lack of working on presentation on Square's part. -CSM

But they were explicitly stated to not have happened except where shown. The whole thing was about preventing that sort of large-scale battle.

And what you're complaining about still isn't presentation. You want a presentation of a large battle, yes, but the presentation of the entire game is more referring to the quality of the cinematics, the sense of drama, the voice acting, on and on. What you're referring to is a component of the plot.